Paradise Lost
On a recent road trip my son asked me about the doctrine of Original Sin, since it seemed unfair that Adam and Eve got a chance (which they blew), but all of their descendants were born with a curse. Below I’ll distill some of the points I went over with him, since some of you may find them interesting.
==> God knew everything that would happen throughout human history before He even made Adam. Everybody (except Jesus) chooses to sin. There is not a single innocent person (except Jesus), so we don’t need to worry about anybody being threatened with hell for something Adam and Eve did.
==> Even so, my understanding of orthodox Christian doctrine is that yes, there is an important sense in which Adam and Eve had a different type of free will from what every human since them has had. (C.S. Lewis talks about this.)
==> The way I made sense of this was to first talk about the conditions that exacerbate sin. For example (I pointed out to my son), on this trip we had also spent time looking up the biographies of the various supervillains in Batman. Not once did their origin story say, “The Riddler was a happy child who had lots of friends and had a fulfilling career.” No, there were always events involving horrible things–and often cruel acts by others–that helped you understand why that person grew up to be Poison Ivy (or whatever).
Now this is crucial: To walk through such explanations is not to excuse or cancel out the crimes of the supervillains; they really are “bad guys.” But it certainly helps us understand what happened.
Back to the Bible accounts: Everyone after the Fall was born into a broken world, full of pain and sinful people. In such an environment, it is understandable why people would grow up to become expert sinners themselves, since fear and hate are such wonderful motivators to sin.
In contrast, Adam and Eve were literally in paradise. They had no insecurities, no worries about food, no fears of an enemy attack. More so than any other humans,* they had a genuine shot at not sinning.
So if even Adam and Eve couldn’t obey one single rule, you can see how utterly hopeless it is for their descendants. It is in our nature to sin, and in this fallen world, nature will take its course.
* Notice that the one human who escaped this was Jesus–yet He had no insecurities, no worries about food, no fears of an enemy attack. Instead He had complete faith in His Father, and that went hand in hand with His perfect obedience.
Nobody blew anything, the story of throwing out of the Garden of Eden is true. Paradise was a time in a cosmic womb: the purple envelope of glow discharge of our home star Saturn, where the planet Earth floated. And then something terrible happened, namely our previous solar system encountered current Sun. Worlds in Collision by Velikovsky inspired this man so that he and others (David Talbott) could explain this to us in detail. You’re not making sense of anything by telling yourself stories about what You’ve read in the Bible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACeNtITk9Q
Sin is there just to exploit us. I still shiver thinking about people who infected me with this imaginary disease for their soul benefit. F%king monsters to do that to a kid and I damn well know most of them did not believe in it like You do. Understanding their hipocricy cured me at the age of 17 while I was still reading that damn book to people in church.
Sigh.
http://dealingwithcreationisminastronomy.blogspot.com/
Velikovskyanism is nonsense, too. Every bit of it. This was a guy who confused hydrocarbons with carbohydrates, after all.
Everybody agrees Velikowsky was wrong on some things, so what, I wasn’t saying he’s correct only that he inspired the good guys… Can you refute edifice built by Wallace Thornhill http://www.holoscience.com/wp/ and people around him – why are you attacking strawman? Because You’re weak I’d assume. What about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hstum3U2zw Dr. Pierre-Marie Robitaille? What about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q185InpONK4 Stephen Crothers? ha? What is your IQ to even talk about his things? http://www.iqtest.dk/main.swf
Can you state what constitutes an argument?
It wasn’t a message to You, It was for Murphy, who seem to cling to his beliefs for one reason or another. Forgive my bs, but I just struggled through a visit at private(paid to get in front of line)/public mandated doctor who refuses to diagnose me with sibo and give me the prescription for particular antibiotics that are proven to work because of reasons – iliterate bs based on athority and her bloated ego – while I am suffering, barely struggling around…
Coincidentally, Scott Sumner had a related post recently:
http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=29040
I really liked this recent essay talking about the inverted motif (or redemptive reading) of the healing of the woman in Mark 5 and how it highlights aspects of Christ’s role in overcoming the effects of the Fall. The connection between the daughters of Jephthah and Jairus was also very interesting.
http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/a-redemptive-reading-of-mark-525-34/
I love the Garden of Eden. More than anything it is an awesome story of what a small lie can mean. If you look at the people involved what actually happens?
God says that He forbids Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil saying that in the day that they eat of it they shall surely die.
Adam and Eve labor in the Garden but know neither joy or sorrow. This is a key thing to understand. In knowing no sorrow they know no joy. They do not choose to do good for they have no understanding of evil. This is much like a child in that regard. How can someone who does not understand be held responsible for choice?
Satan comes and tells a small lie mixed with mountains of truth. The only lie, ‘You shall not SURELY die’
Thus we see how the mistake of but one word can manipulate the minds of those around us.
Often times I hear people ask why do bad things happen? My answer is that bad things happen because people are free to choose how they will behave. This means people are free to hurt others and that part of the joy of life is learning of the good and choosing it. It is not enough to simply NOT be bad, one must attempt to be good.
God created a way for man to return to Him. But it requires man to cast off the nature of ignorance and embrace one of contemplation, love, and active endeavors of creation and sharing. Christ though what He has done has given me the opportunity to fail and yet still be redeemed. Though my sins be as red as blood they are washed clean though His atonement. Let us in joyful thankfulness to that God which can teach us to walk in the light of His love.
“Often times I hear people ask why do bad things happen? My answer is that bad things happen because people are free to choose how they will behave. ” Surely bad things happen anyway – disaster and disease occur with no input from man.
The boy is going to be relieved when he finds out it’s a fairy tale and not a historical event. He probably won’t be too happy to find out that Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny aren’t real though.
My son never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter bunny because I only tell him things that I think are true.
The analysis in some of these comments is just brilliant. The only thing missing from Gil’s post was the old “invisible man in the sky” line.
Presumably Bob didn’t tell his son that Santa, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny exist because there is no evidence to believe that they exist. Whereas with god, wait, how are they different?
Knox do you troll Krugman’s blog by comments such as, “It’s almost as if you think government deficits can boost Aggregate Demand. You don’t actually believe that do you?!”
Bob,
You should feel good in knowing that I only “troll” your blog and here is the reason – you know better than to believe this nonsense. As a formerly confirmed atheist you are, or should be, aware of the arguments on both sides of this issue. As such, you should acknowledge that you believe in god on faith and without evidence or reason. I have made repeated requests that you provide us with evidence for the miracles attested to in the Bible from non-Biblical source material and, to date, you have not. I understand why – I have placed you with an impossible task. But shouldn’t that give you pause? At least for a second?
I was driving home from a weekend trip with my two boys yesterday and they wanted to discuss Noah’s Ark with me. I could have gone Ken Ham on them but I decided to tell them the truth – there is no evidence and no reason to believe that Noah’s Ark is anything other than a theological yarn spun by some people, who while probably bright for their time, were totally ignorant of virtually everything we know today. Do you think the Noah story is true? Seriously. You can tell your son what you want and I will tell mine what I want – but at the end of the day who is serving their best interest? Is it the person telling what may be perceived as “hard truths” or the person telling a story that may make them feel better but is not based in reality?
Knox
“I could have gone Ken Ham on them”
-Aw, come on. My parents did that with me until I was like, four or five. Deception can be fun. 🙂
Knox wrote:
Is it the person telling what may be perceived as “hard truths” or the person telling a story that may make them feel better but is not based in reality?
And now we’ve come full circle. To refresh your memory, Knox, you were tag-teaming me with a critic who said my son would be *relieved* to learn that Garden of Eden story was make believe.
But as usual, even maintaining a coherent line of attack is not required when it comes to standing up for logic vs. faith.
Bob,
I’m not tag-teaming with anybody on this thread.
I take it you are just going to keep ignoring the requests for non-Biblical evidence for the miracle stories in the Bible? Is that a red flag to anyone else? As usual you won’t even ACTUALLY respond to the MANY requests made for this evidence.
“But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,” ! Peter 3:15
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16
You have been rebuked Bob. Based on the Bible you should provide the answers with gentleness and respect. You have not. Stew on that.
Knox
Knox wrote:
I take it you are just going to keep ignoring the requests for non-Biblical evidence for the miracle stories in the Bible? Is that a red flag to anyone else?
Knox, not too long ago I devoted a post to someone’s essay giving arguments for why he thought the resurrection of Jesus was the best hypothesis to explain the data we have. I’m not expecting you to endorse those views, but no one is ignoring you. Others who have more knowledge than me responded to some of your claims about Church and Bible history. Obviously you disagreed with them–they were saying you were wrong–but it is not true that people are ignoring your requests.
With all due respect Bob I didn’t ask them – I asked you. The reason why is fairly obvious – I want you to critically examine your beliefs and through that process realize that they are not as sound as you think. Miracles, like the resurrection, are the least probable explanation for an occurrence. Is it more or less likely that the resurrection took place or that the people attesting to the resurrection were wrong (for good or ill)? I don’t want to go down this path AGAIN but the gospels are not contemporaneous, eyewitness accounts. Even the most conservative apologist, assuming that they are honest, will admit the same. I have seen and read the rationalization for why the gospels, even in that event, are reliable and I’m sure it’s obvious I don’t think those arguments are meritorious.
I have mentioned it before but it is difficult to assess a person’s tone in this type of forum. I’m sure I appear snarky and that is unfortunate. When it comes to Gene I absolutely am because, well, Gene. With you I am not and hope you can understand that.
Have a good week Bob.
Fair enough Knox, and yes we can both agree that Gene is exasperating at times…
But just so you understand why I punted on this one: Notice that your comments here are indented. If you follow the chain back, you’ll see that this started when Gil told me my son would be relieved to learn that I had been spinning a scary myth. Then you told me I had been feeding my son a myth because it was reassuring. So it’s frustrating to get hit with contradictory accusations like that. On this point, Gil was right: Say what you will about the doctrine of Original Sin, but it’s definitely not a reassuring fairy tale we tell our kids to hide the awful truth.
Well, government deficits can boost aggregate demand in situations of substantial unemployed resources, but probably have very little effect on spending when substantial unemployed resources do not exist or when the deficits are too small. Which is pretty much all of the time. Certainly, they are not the most effective way to boost AD. These are undoubtedly $ printing and restoration of confidence.
You could write that with a straight face?
Gil, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, and that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I understand why you think that is absurd–I used to be an atheist myself, and had planned on writing the definitive critique of Christianity–but I would appreciate it if you would take the time to either read my Sunday posts and argue with my position, or to keep to yourself. It doesn’t really do anything for anybody for you to just hurl insults based on your incredulity.
So ~4,000 years ago just after God created the Universe in which he made it appear to be extremely large and extremely old (which it can’t be because the fate of the Universe rests of the sinfulness of humanity) two primordial humans decided the fate of humanity? And around 1,500 years later it was decided by peoples’ sinfulness for which God delivered an extinction-level event via water save for a family and a large wooden boat full of animals?
Dr. Murphy,
Gil is a long-time troll over at Mises.org. His modus operandi is to mock and condescend, so responding to him does nothing but waste time. Life is too precious to spend it on the likes of Gil.
So anyone who dares criticises Creationism is a troll? Feel free to wallow in your non-science.
I think he’s calling you a troll because your comments are insulting and are completely devoid of any sort of substance. Being approximately the 10,936,376th person on the internet to recycle the same lame one liners about santa claus and the tooth fairy comes across as a sign that you are unwilling or unable to make a serious argument.
You are, in your typical fashion, mocking, insulting and treating Dr. Murphy as if he is stupid because of his beliefs (I am agnostic, BTW). You have been doing this for YEARS to those who hold libertarian views, particular over at Mises.org. So yes, you are trolling.
This is my only reply to you.
Richie, the fact someone as visibly intelligent as Bob believes in such a ludicrous concept as God is a big flashing red light about how much to trust him. Ayn Rand didn’t believe in God. Mises didn’t believe in God. Rothbard didn’t believe in God. Landsburg doesn’t believe in God. Sumner doesn’t believe in God. So any free-thinking, intellectually rigorous Ph.D. economist shouldn’t believe in God. Believing in God might be excusable for most good people, but when one was a former atheist, is a present Ph.D. economist, and is one who has not yet given up intellectual pursuits, believing in God has little excuse in the modern world.
“Richie, the fact someone as visibly intelligent as Bob believes in such a ludicrous concept as God is a big flashing red light about how much to trust him. Ayn Rand didn’t believe in God. Mises didn’t believe in God. Rothbard didn’t believe in God. Landsburg doesn’t believe in God. Sumner doesn’t believe in God. So any free-thinking, intellectually rigorous Ph.D. economist shouldn’t believe in God. ”
Hey, an extremely arrogant atheist. Shocker!
Didn’t realize you felt that way E. Harding.
Rather it’s a catch-all word to use against someone you don’t like. You & friends have retreated into believing creation story which people some 2,500 years ago thought was actually history because they had no way of knowing otherwise. Apparently the great “revelation” for Creationism that the “Creation demands a Creator” which in turn is grasping for straws. Worse is the concept that Jesus has fulfilled some Old Testament prophecy which can’t be true or there wouldn’t be any Jews.
“My son never believed in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter bunny because I only tell him things that I think are true.” Before I had a child I thought all this Santa nonsense was bad – how could parents lie to their kids like that? Yet somehow, I found myself sucked in to the whole charade, and it started seeming like fun. It still seems a bit odd that we do this to our kids. I admire you for sticking to your guns over this one. Do you give strict instructions for him not to tell the other kids, or do all his friends also have the same view?
I have never told him God doesn’t exist, but I have said there is no evidence that he does. My son does not believe in either God or Santa now. I would think that a child may find his belief in God shaken to some extent to find out that Santa does not exist, but what do I know?
Harold, it’s not like we had a PowerPoint show about “Santa is a Hoax,” we just didn’t introduce him to the idea. But right, when it got to the point where he was asking about it, we said not to talk about it with other kids because their parents could do that.
I honestly don’t know whether I’d tell my hypothetical child God exists or not (I feel I shouldn’t deceptively say “form your own opinions”), but I think I’d tell him/her Santa exists. The former delusion is more permanently re-enforced by others than the latter. Besides, I think it’d be fun to lie to (your own) children.
How come religion never delves into knowledge being the fall of man. Modern mankind and Christians tend to idolize knowledge yet knowledge fruit is what led to our fall. Hmmm. I mean, it could have been the fruit of anti knowledge or the fruit of ignorance, but it was not.
Could Pol Pot have come out of an unfallen Adam and Eve? Excellent question for the thinking Christian.
Romans 2:1 you hypocrites and you are hypocrites, shame on you.
God sure does have a terrible way of creating a universe if this is all true.