24
Jan
2014
Kristen Meghan on “Geo-Engineering”
I’ll be honest, when I looked at the list of speakers for the Save Long Island event (where I debated Bill Still), the talk by Kristen Meghan jumped out at me as something that was too “out there” for a respectable, mild-mannered guy like myself. I was imagining General Ripper from Dr. Strangelove.
Well I met Kristen over the weekend and she sounded completely sincere, and she’s obviously not stupid. So that means either she’s a really good actress or she’s insane.
Or, the Air Force really is doing something nefarious. You tell me.
I’d be against geo-engineering for the same reason I’m against the government interfering in the market: unintended consequences.
On an unrelated note, check out the crazy rant I got out of Scott Sumner. First he denies that the nominal economy has anything to do with the real economy (WHAT?!?) then he says that a government monopoly on money is the best possible system and no one has proposed alternatives.
“John Becker, You misunderstand what I am proposing. Your arguments apply to the real economy. You are right that free markets, not government bureaucrats should allocate resources in the real economy. The nominal economy has nothing at all do do with the real economy, even though they are “correlated.”
I favor targeting NGDP, which is just another way of saying that if the government plans to have a monopoly on the production of currency, they should not creates massive nominal shocks that cause problems for the economy. I don’t even no what it means for the government not to control the money supply, when it produces currency. Does it mean legalizing counterfeiting? Or spinning a roulette wheel to determine the money supply? Of keeping it fixed? I have no idea as to what the alternative to a sensible monetary policy would be. My opponents just wave their hands and say that the right amount of money will magically appear if the government is not involved, and the arguments they use are typically completely unpersuasive, Just handwaving.”
Its weird that Sumner doesn’t see ngdp as second best to ngdp futures and that those aren’t second best to a lot of things I could imagine. Like how bout just legalize contract? If gold is so inconsequential, the government sure seems scared of it. Its simply a scale of how much you think the gov can / should rgulaye the aggregate economy.
And yeah, I’d be against the fed target in in nominal insulation.
Should be “fed targeting nominal insolation (sunlight)” as in what government agency would be adjusting the sulfur by the rear view mirror?
I don’t get how on earth any decent economist could think that an absolute government monopoly on the production of a good is the best or only possible system. It’s like he losses all his economic training when he starts talking about money/macro.
I think I understand how we get there. The government is so incompetent that it can barely handle settling contracts in its own currency of account.
John, it is a weird comment on Sumner’s part, especially since he gave a list of 7 important monetary theory books to Lars Christensen, one of which was Free Banking and Monetary Theory, by David Glasner. I assume that the key words in his comment are “when it produces currency”, though.
Oh, and as for the video: I’ll go with insane, or at least unstable.
Marc please explain why.
I don’t want to do a minute-by-minute thing (and I won’t comment on the Colbert/Ellen video she shows at the start), but the main points seem to be:
1. The US government allows every one of its tens of thousands of bioenvironmental engineers to access information which prove beyond doubt that a decades-long, multi-billion dollar secret operation which may kill millions worldwide is taking place. I assume every BEE had access to the info because she doesn’t mention having any specific clearance, and while I’m not an american myself, I’m rather sure your military isn’t any kinder to people in breach of oath than any other country’s.
2. This may just be due to bureaucracy, but why does the army order aluminum and barium oxide and sulfate through HAZMAT forms? The general public can buy an unlimited quantity of either of those from amazon – heck, baking powder has aluminum sulfate in it.
3. She says that her job included controlling who the manufacturer of the particular HAZMAT was, and that the forms she noticed didn’t have the necessary data. So she complies with OSHA standards and gets urged to just approve the use. Why would the government create a huge conspiracy to disrupt the environment, and then create a bureaucracy that would stop the process and expose the conspiracy? And was Kristen the only BEE that ever checked whether forms were compiled in full?
4. If mobbing happened, does that mean that all her superiors are aware of the conspiracy? She wasn’t really high up the ladder, I assume, since they had her checking stamps on forms.
5. “Hey, Karen discovered the conspiracy where we poison the air. Let’s change her job.”
“Ok, I’ll send her to do air samples all day long. That will keep her mind off the poisonous air.”
6. If you can move to a random football field and find it has been poisoned, then we can assume that any other sacre of land has a similar level of those chemicals.
6.1
6.1 Why don’t you perform another sample as a civilian? Farmers sample the ground all the time, it’s not a US Army monopoly.
6.2 Assuming that there was 20 pounds of barium sulfate over the whole football field, that’s to say, 6400yd^2. That makes 117,522,944 tons of barium sulfate over the US alone, while barite production is only 7 million tons yearly worldwide. Assuming that the US can’t make more than 10% of barium production disappear, then the conspiracy must have started 167 years ago.
Sorry my message got so long and truncated, Bob – and I do not mean to start a flame war. But, if you think she was genuine in her beliefs (and considering how she stresses that she was demonized by everyone, all of a sudden) I think she may not have, as germans charmingly say, all her cups in her drawers.
I have not come to a conclusion regarding chem-trails and contrails. I know for a fact a normal functioning aircraft will create a vapor mist. Nothing wrong with this. This is a contrail. I know a guy in town who gets all twitterpated about these. I laugh at him. He showed me how they start at 6 in the morning and fly a grid pattern. He was correct. There are patterns, not all of them are a simple commercial airliner from air port to airport. I see those also. Well these grids had been happening over my area for the past couple ears. We had been in a drought. Guess what happened on September Friday, September 13 2013? We had a flood, well first it rained every minute for 5 days over this same 30-40 mile square grid. We had a flood that was first described as large, then 100 year, then 1000 year. Now these people don’t even know how long it has been since we have had a flood this large. Well anyways, the square grid contrails have stopped her in Colorado.
I have also seen the chemtrails, only once or twice. A large military looking aircraft came down low and let out tons of particulate for about 3 miles, along the Northern Colorado Foothills. I am not sure what they were doing, this was few years ago in the same area.
I have no conclusion other than a free market would never allow any of this garbage to happen.
Watch this youtube of Prince at the 3 minute mark. He is very talented. Maybe mislead and eccentric, but he does not suffer from any type of debilitating mental illness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBzx_3eOyZA
Excellent posts Marc.
And as you hint, Colbert??
But I dubt your cold logic will cool the fervid paranoia.
Ken B. OK so you’re happy with Marc’s analysis. If I do a follow-up post on this, are you happy with him representing the Faithful Opposition?
I’m being serious, I want to know exactly why people watch her video and say, “That can’t be true.”
Bob, yes, if Marc is willing. He clearly knows more here than I do, and has done more digging than I will.
As ever I reserve all rights, I never delegate my conscience or opinion.
Bob, please start with the part where I seem to recall the che trails were proven to in fact be true to some degree.
No, start with the evidence for that. Citing the Gospel according to Andrew won’t suffice.
That’s what I said. I couldn’t find any yet so maybe I misremembered it along with mkultra, NSA, etc. It wasn’t a big deal to me relative to syphalis experiments and a dozen other admissions I could rack my brain for: Cuba false flag Etc.
If a government denial is true it usually means they haven’t figured out how to do it yet.
Also just about the only people prosecuted or sought for espionage have been whistleblowers.
When on the phone it’s harder to be clear.
No, I was not saying Bob should testify to what vague memories reside in my neurons.
Assuming other commenters are psychotic is a weird impulse don’t you think?
What I was asking of Bob is to try to find the admission. Then, one can estimate the truth by taking the admission and roughly doubling it.
I don’t want to do a minute-by-minute thing (and I won’t comment on the Colbert/Ellen video she shows at the start), but the main points seem to be:
1. The US government allows every one of its tens of thousands of bioenvironmental engineers to access information which prove beyond doubt that a decades-long, multi-billion dollar secret operation which may kill millions worldwide is taking place. I assume every BEE had access to the info because she doesn’t mention having any specific clearance, and while I’m not an american myself, I’m rather sure your military isn’t any kinder to people in breach of oath than any other country’s.
2. This may just be due to bureaucracy, but why does the army order aluminum and barium oxide and sulfate through HAZMAT forms? The general public can buy an unlimited quantity of either of those from amazon – heck, baking powder has aluminum sulfate in it.
3. She says that her job included controlling who the manufacturer of the particular HAZMAT was, and that the forms she noticed didn’t have the necessary data. So she complies with OSHA standards and gets urged to just approve the use. Why would the government create a huge conspiracy to disrupt the environment, and then create a bureaucracy that would stop the process and expose the conspiracy? And was Kristen the only BEE that ever checked whether forms were compiled in full?
4. If mobbing happened, does that mean that all her superiors are aware of the conspiracy? She wasn’t really high up the ladder, I assume, since they had her checking stamps on forms.
5. “Hey, Karen discovered the conspiracy where we poison the air. Let’s change her job.”
“Ok, I’ll send her to do air samples all day long. That will keep her mind off the poisonous air.”
6. If you can move to a random football field and find it has been poisoned, then we can assume that any other sacre of land has a similar level of those chemicals.
6.1
http://contrailscience.com/how-to-debunk-chemtrails/
Check out the pictures of the “chemtrails” World War II bombers left!!
Look at the ‘weird’ pattern in this one http://contrailscience.com/some-more-wwii-contrails/
We are not talking about WWll bombers, are we? No one ever said that true persistent contrails can’t form – they can form under just the right conditions. The tic tac toe grid patterns that blanket our skies on a near daily basis are not normal persistent contrails. If the conditions have to be just right for persistent contrails to form, why do we see them throughout the year, whether it’s warm and sunny or below freezing?
I’m 55 and I don’t remember seeing persistent contrails, EVER, until the mid 90’s.. I’m sure you will tell me that my memory can’t be trusted, mind reader that you are.
I’m sure that some beta testing was done before the aerosol spraying program went global, but the pervasive, daily, global inundation of chemtrails has never happened before.
We know that the military has done bioweapons aerosol testing over American cities since at least the beginning of the Cold War. That is history, not “conspiracy theory.”
This government has conducted unethical medical experiments for almost a century. The power elite are sociopaths – they were sociopaths when they irradiated soldiers (without informed consent) with radioactive materials back in the 50’s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States) and our governmental leaders are still sociopaths, or are you okay with Obama drone bombing wedding parties in foreign lands, killing thousands of innocent civilians including hundreds of children?
I’ve seen unmarked planes flying in concert at low altitude (true persistent contrails normally form at high altitudes), going repeatedly back and forth across the sky for up to an hour spewing “persistent contrails” until the entire sky looks ike a giant tic tac toe board. No, that is anything but normal.
As the extensive list of patents show in the link below, a global aerosol program is indeed logistically possible:
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/an-extensive-list-of-patents/
If age exists then we already are geoengineering. All that’s left is the economics.
Force corrupts economics.
When you have fiat and a tax/tax free system, there is no limit to the possible waste. Nothing is off the table. Without market forces, people are driven by their inherent human nature. Some people are good, some people are bad, some of are good on some days, bad on other days.
So what I am saying, there is a lot of “wealth” that in a free market would have been put to work or a cause developed by the consumer. Since we do not have a free market, there is no limit to the evils or simply stupid ideas that receive capital…
Go to the 18 minute mark and listen to her explain how government employees work over time to control social media. I guarantee she has this part 100% correct.
Go to the 19 minute mark and she says you can have guns and many other freedoms but without air and water you have nothing. I agree with here sentiment but disagree with her conclusion. You can have guns, many other freedoms, air and water but without the fruits of your labor, you truly have nothing. All the clean air and clean water mean nothing if you cannot produce to the betterment of you and your family…
Go to 20 minute mark. “Metabunk” Priceless.
[EDITed by RPM.]
I also use to resist the government all the time. Local, County State, Federal. When you start to make progress, they do come after you. They start vicious smear campaigns. They do try their hardest to make you paranoid so that you will destroy yourself. They are tempters.
Don’t let them take you down. Relax and take care of your self. Don’t get paranoid. Don’t loose focus. Take care of yourself, your family and keep spreading your message.
”Go to 20 minute mark. “Metabunk” Priceless.”
Interesting. The site is run by the creator of the Tony Hawk Pro Skater and Guitar Hero video game series. If I trusted him with my child hood, I’ll also trust him till the end with my conspiracy debunking.
I went back and watched her video much more closely and realized when she said metabunk, she was giving out an actual website address. When I first said metabunk priceless, I thought she had simply coined a new term, meta bunk. As all government meta being bunk.
I went back to her YouTube video, listened closely and then visited the actually website metabunk. I would don’t label this website as priceless. I don’t waste a lot of time trying to learn about or debunk “conspiracy’s”, rather I focus on trying to educate people about the virtues of the free market and perils of socialism.
Strike the root, not the symptom. Then you can never go wrong, or be conspiracy crazy. Sometimes I think many conspiracy theory’s are actually part of a larger conspiracy with the sole purpose of distracting and wasting time.
People really need to focus on the free market. Create laws that reverse interventionism or delete these laws. Recall politicians who support socialism. So on and so forth.
I read that Metabunk thread on Meghan a couple months ago. If you filter out the antagonism and questioning of her authenticity from some of the posters, their criticism sounds pretty reasonable.
I don’t doubt that Kristen Meghan is sincere in presenting her perspective, nor that the Air Force could be up to no good, nor that they would crack down on “troublemaking elements” in their ranks, nor that the government has tried geo-engineering and filed evil-looking patents. But I haven’t seen a compelling case for a “chemtrail conspiracy” specifically.
Regarding Bob’s Lewisian trilemma: the bar for insanity is pretty low here. Can’t one be overly invested in a theory or simply naive without being insane? (Bob thinks Sumner is insane, Gene Callahan probably thinks Bob is insane, Krugman thinks we’re all some combination of insane and evil, blah blah blah…)
You haven’t seen a compelling case for a chemtrail conspiracy? Look up at the sky every day for god sake. I live in Buffalo and they bombard us daily. Clear blue skies are a thing of the past. As I mentioned above, the chemtrails that blanket our skies every damn day with the signature tic tac toe pattern (and disperse into ghastly pseudo-cloud formations over several hours) are anything but normal.
I’ve debated a few Metabunk members and, at least in my experience, they always resort to ad hominem attacks (while insisting that they are not trying to assassinate your character – kind of like the class bully that bumps into you on purpose and then denies having done it). They will ignore any evidence presented to them and will continually repeat questions that you have already answered. They try to get you to lose your cool so that you wind up looking bad.
Some will outright lie, like how one guy tried to convince me that nuclear bomb detonations are good for the ozone layer (I think it is likely that chemtrails are damage control for a compromised ozone layer). I promptly found about a dozen technical articles that state that radiation from nuclear bombs can wreak havoc on the ozone layer.
Not only did this guy not respond to me after I provided links to the articles, but when I returned to the You Tube video the next day, all of my posts had been deleted. It is unlikely that the person who posted the video deleted them, as that person believed in chemtrails.
Metabunk members always bring up the photos of WWll bombers spewing persistent contrails. Again, the point is not that persistent contrails can never form, but that the pervasive, global and daily inundation is absolutely a new phenomenon.
I don’t think that I’m insane or that the Metabunk people are insane. I think that Metabunk is most likely a government front and that Metabunk members are either misguided but sincere or traitors to humanity. We all know about the FBI’s COINTELPRO as well as the CIA’s control of and infiltration of media via Operation Mockingbird. Traitors may comprise a small percentage of the population, but there always seems to be enough of them, regardless of time period, location, ethnicity or religion.
Think about this: if I stumbled across a website that promulgates the belief in elves, would I try to convince the members that elves don’t exist? Why would I even waste my time trying to debunk a belief that was obviously nuts? If I did that, I would either be a loser with nothing better to do with my life, or else a bully that picks on intellectual inferiors.
Metabunk members are absolutely dedicated to dispelling so-called “conspiracy theories.” I even had one Metabunk member tell me that he/she is passionate about dispelling the belief in chemtrails because those dreadful “chemies” are a danger to society. Yes, let’s instantly label millions of people who believe in chemtrails as being insane and dangerous because of a couple of nutjobs that act out violently.
Cool. He also has the best thing I’ve seen on the web in days. https://www.metabunk.org/threads/kristen-meghan-former-us-air-force-whistle-blower.1066/page-2#post-24839
Bob,
Thanks for posting this information, especially objectively. To answer a couple misconceptions, I did have a secret clearance. The military relies on people not asking questions, this is why you would not question what was ordered, unless you are not institutionalized like so many on active duty. Remember, being a Federal entity of the government, companies cannot just acquire materials without a paper trail, especially hazardous materials. This is required by law for proof of legal compliance and also to comply with local Tier 2 reporting for the EPA and fire departments in the event of a spill or natural disaster.
It is important to know geoengineering has been going on for quite some time. Do a simple search for geoengineering, not “chemtrails”. Also search stratospheric aerosol spraying, solar radiation management, weather modification, and climate engineering. I don’t mind the skepticism by some of the comments, people should never take things for face value without doing their own research. I want to recommend a good website where you can find the government patents, paper work, bills related to this, sampling data, and other great resources. http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org
As far as metabunk, Mick West is a troubled man who not only has threatened to recant my story, but some of his “minions” from his site has impersonated me online in their forums on and YouTube. You have to ask yourself, if these people think I’m bat *hit crazy, why do they spend so much time trying to discredit me. I did a speech in ATL last spring, that video has comments from folks from metabunk daily since April. I don’t always agree with other people, but what I don’t do is spend 40 hours a week trying to discredit them online and follow them to rallies and media events. There is an incentive there….
Keep up the great work Bob, you are my favorite economic rock star. I’m an activist, but huge free market supporter and enthusiast.
Take care,
Kristen
one vote for insane.
Why?
Possibly the absence of any evidence? The usual conspiracy tropes about people having motives, for reasons to hide secrets, as if that proved that they had secrets? The need to call critics troubled or minions? The excuse making, such as saying don’t search for chem trails, when her talk is all about Chem trails? The appeals to solidarity? The general emotionalism of the talk?
I know I know: I’m arrogant for answering your question.
Well, maybe a smidge arrogant for insinuating people you know nothing at all about are insane?
?
Did you tell me Obama was lying at every step of the NSA leaks, or did someone have to tell you that?
I’m using “you” in the general sense.
http://contrailscience.com/debunked-kmir6-geoegnineering-skies-chemtrails/
I am struck, not surprised, you don’t see it Bob. 20 minute talk, lots about her emotions, shout outs to vaccers, Colbert, and not a single piece of verifiable evidence. That spells c,r,a,n,k. Toss in that fluid dynamics iand aeronautics are fields most people know nothing about, but are central to the extended appeal to ignorance that is chemtrail talk, and only the conspiracy minded canoot laugh.
This to me is the most interesting part of this thread. The video screams crank to me. It’s like a perfect storm of cues. I have pointed out reasons in other comments. Yet Bob quite clearly does not see it.
Before Bob goes off on my closed minded arrogance, note that, as you see from the links I gave, I did not just go with my gut. I did a little cursory investigation, and found damning stuff. As now have others; Desolation Jones has some killer stuff.
So, what you are saying is that the government couldn’t possibly take the Agent Orange program and convert that into something like…
Well, the Agent Orange program.
If you put something like this past the government you are either not paying attention or lack insight.
I don’t believe it simply because I haven’t thought up a cockamamie reason to do it.
In vietnam, they came up with a cockamamie reason AND THEY DID IT.
So, just because I’m not as wacko as some of these government people who could come up with cockamamie reasons I can’t even fathom doesn’t mean I think it’s out of the realm of possibility.
Go read about MKUltra and just how outlandish some hairbrain idea can get before they won’t give it a shot.
There’s been a bunch of incidents that prove morality is no barrier:
* uranium bullets in Iraq
* phosphorous bombs in Iraq
* cluster bombs in Afghanistan
* Europeans sending shiploads of nuclear waste to dump in Somalia
However, all of those things had a fairly clear objective, even if they were immoral. Humans typically act with a purpose in mind (if you are Mises, then that’s an axiom, but for others it’s more of a general observation). In terms of spraying chemicals we might consider:
* disposal of material… but seems an expensive way to do it, easier and cheaper just to bribe some EPA official and falsify the paperwork.
* Agenda 21 and population control… but clearly not very effective, if it is killing people the effect is so subtle that no one notices.
* geoengineering… again ineffective.
By the way, geoengineering is perfectly normal for humans, we modify our environment to improve our chances of survival. Building a city is geoengineering, so is irrigation, damming rivers, planting crops, fencing land, etc.
Given the woeful state of climate science, and their lack of ability to predict anything, I can’t imagine they would be able to deliver any measurable result by spraying a small amount of chemical into the air. As you say, maybe they have convinced themselves that what they are doing is useful.
Mind you, let’s just suppose there are a bunch of loons out there who honestly believe that spraying a bit of chemical will help them achieve some barking mad objective. I’m tempted to say, safer for everyone to leave them at it, at least they aren’t doing much harm.
A few barking loons won’t suffice. She needs a top to bottom conspiracy. The claim is that this goes on pretty much wherever military contrails are to found. Wider actually if you belive her theory about what makes a chemtrail.
And the harassment and tsa charges. That cannot be a few isolated loons.
Oh hell no, that’s just normal tough guy attitude behind a uniform. Very widespread, no conspiracy behind that one at all. I will say that the USA seems somehow worse in that department than most other countries, but I doubt anyone sat down and planned it that way.
What happens is the legislators just can’t resist making more and more pointless laws then expecting the cops to understand and enforce those pointless laws. Pretty soon the situation degenerates into something unworkable, all concerned know it is unworkable, and after that it just comes down to personality and how people deal with the fact that most of what they do every day is bullshit. Some cope, others want to take it out on random passers by.
If that is right then it’s not evidence, is it?
Evidence of a growing social problem, but not evidence of chemical spray.
People know about the Agent Orange program. It wasn’t a secret. I don’t believe conspiracy theories that would have required thousands of people to keep quiet.
You might need to rethink. This guy is pretty convincing. http://www.theonion.com/video/slowwitted-conspiracy-theorist-convinced-governmen,34750/
Ken B:rob Ford is a drunk.
Andrew’:so Ken B you say no mayor can be sober.
>>”As far as metabunk, Mick West is a troubled man who not only has threatened to recant my story,”
What do you mean by “threatening to recant my story?” Do you have a link?
>>”You have to ask yourself, if these people think I’m bat *hit crazy, why do they spend so much time trying to discredit me.”
Bob Murphy thinks Scott Sumner its crazy, but he still spends many hours of his trying to discredit his theories. I don’t see anything wrong with that. If the theories are harmful, they should be discredited.
As far trying discrediting you personally, the only thing I can find was this. Is there anything more? From half the thread I read, I didn’t find anything particularly malicious.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/kristen-meghan-former-us-air-force-whistle-blower.1066/
They were just initially questioning your credentials, as they should since you were being called chemtrails whistleblower specificically. (including in the video description of this very video Murphy posted) But you later go on to specify you whistleblowing had nothing to do with chemtrails.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/kristen-meghan-former-us-air-force-whistle-blower.1066/page-2#post-24804
>>I don’t always agree with other people, but what I don’t do is spend 40 hours a week trying to discredit them online and follow them to rallies and media events.There is an incentive there…. ”
What I admire about Bob Murphy is that he’s willingness to engage his critics. In fact, the Austrian school being as marginalized as it is, being able to attract any critics at all seems to be a goal of Murphy’s. In the end of the video you claimed that the biggest hurdle that you have is disinformation sites, but your solution seems to be to ignore them instead of confronting them head on. I’ve followed your beef with this Mick West fellow on twitter just now and you seem to be the completely opposite of Murphy. Instead of welcoming the criticism, anyone with any criticism is is dismissed as “government shills” or “government agents”. As you just implied in your post, you’re also accusing of people of like West of being paid to do what they do.
You say things like
“@MickWest I haven’t cared that’s why I nvr go to ur site. Id rather tread on exposing govt contradictions & helping others.”
“@MickWest I don’t pay ur website any attention. The fact u allow such misdirection “debunks” ur whole site.”
“@MickWest thats a .edu….not credible. Come on! You follow govt sites and NASA.” [in reference to a scientific paper in a UCLA website not being credible for some reason]
“@joerogan @MickWest well joe when ppl get paid to spread disinfo they have energizer bunny endurance.”
“@JtbuffBuff Mick is a self proclaimed expert. Anyone who dedicates life 2 debunking shit they aren’t credentialed in= schill or fame whore”
https://twitter.com/MickWest/status/364380548573036546
https://twitter.com/MickWest/status/365547426834153474
https://twitter.com/MickWest/status/363448434084163584
https://twitter.com/KristenMeghan/status/413306529551372288
My god. You’re living in a bubble.
A belief in chemtrails is harmful? Kristen is correct; why would someone devote so much time and energy trying to debunk the belief in chemtrails? Would you be passionate about and spend several hours every day trying to debunk a belief in elves? If you did, you would either be a loser with nothing else better to do, or else a bully who enjoys picking on intellectual inferiors.
You’ve heard of COINTELPRO and Operation Mockingbird, have you not?
As for credentials, Mick West is a former game programmer and pilot. He is not a scientist.
Robert P Murphy, are you related to the Michael J Murphy whose site she cites?
Hey guys,
I’m not asking, “Do you think she proved the Air Force dropped chemicals that killed JFK?”
I’m asking, “Do you think she is lying when she says she discovered some type of skullduggery in the internal accounting of chemicals, is she lying when she says she was threatened for looking into this stuff, and is she lying when she says other colleagues have told her privately that they have seen evidence of this too, but don’t want to get fired?”
This isn’t her being overly invested in a “theory,” meaning she looks at photos of chemtrails and smells a rat. No, this is (allegedly) guys coming up and saying, “Yeah I loaded a canister of stuff an a plane, don’t really know what it was.”
Now on that point, I was trying to be objective and it occurred to me that some guys could have seen the talks she gives (on YouTube or whatever), and thought if they contacted her and said, “I have some info for you, let’s meet at this bar to discuss off the record,” well, you get what I’m saying.
To just say, “This is nuts” is not enough for me. To just say, “Oh my gosh, I guess there’s lizard people trying to make the earth like their home planet, ha ha Bob you idiot” is also not an adequate response.
I imagine on other blogs some of you say, “If THAT were true, why aren’t whistleblowers coming forward? It’s all a giant conspiracy and every single government employee is in on it? Give me a break.”
Can’t she just be wrong not lying?
You aten’t lying when you cite The gospel of John as an eye witness account.
It sounds like you realize chemtrails are horse hockey, but want to cling to her anecdotes as proof of some other, unspecifed, skullduggery. If Sacco and Vanzetti weren’t guilty of that they were surely guilty of something.
She has presented no evidence of skullduggery: no quantities out of whack, no follow up bupkis. And there are hints of other simple explanations.
Good point. Not lying does not necessarily imply not being mistaken.
One can really truly believe something that is nevertheless horses&*t. A good example is your justification for a state.
A state is necessary so that Rothbardians might have meaning and purpose in their lives. We see again the wisdom of the creator.
“A state is necessary so that Rothbardians might have meaning and purpose in their lives.”
A murderer is necessary so that protectors against murder might have meaning and purpose in their lives.
Looks like violence is necessary in order to give meaning and purpose to life according to Ken B.
Bob, I think there is something with what Kristen Meghan is saying.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5%2C003%2C186.PN.&OS=PN%2F5%2C003%2C186&RS=PN%2F5%2C003%2C186
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/chemist-speaks-out-on-geoengineeringchemtrails/
http://realnewsaustralia.com/2013/08/04/corpus-delicti-geo-engineering-whistleblower-speaks-out/
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/25/chemtrails-are-happening-all-over-the-world-according-to-former-british-columbia-premier/?fb_action_ids=10200459881698373&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210200459881698373%22%3A650703068281209}&action_type_map={%2210200459881698373%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=[]
If there is such a hidden program, it could account for part of the “missing warming”.
Yours,
Tom
“If THAT were true, why aren’t whistleblowers coming forward? It’s all a giant conspiracy and every single government employee is in on it? Give me a break.”
1. Government is compartmentalized.
2. ALL people are self interested and rarely bite the hand that feeds them.
“ why aren’t whistleblowers coming forward? It’s all a giant conspiracy and every single government employee is in on it?”
1. Government is compartmentalized.
2. ALL people are self interested and rarely bite the hand that feeds them.
So, before Ed Snowden…
You know how things get discovered?
They get discovered. Before that they aren’t yet discovered.
Yes, some of us assumed the government was doing everything they had the capability of doing, kept divulging they were trying to do (total information awareness), and STILL keep denying the next revelation that they do.
Why would we assume they can’t possibly be doing this?
I can’t think of a single reason why they would want to do something so insane, but that hasn’t stopped them before.
As of now, the government claims 2, two, TWO! terror plots foiled by the NSA spying on everyone in the known universe.
To me, that says there have been ZERO. So, why are they doing it? Damned if I know. Just because they are evil is my best guess.
“Why would we assume they can’t possibly be doing this?”
No one said you should. There’s that logic problem again.
skeptic: what’s the evidence?
andrew’: why do you insist it’s impossible?
COINTELPRO
let me know when to stop.
I’m fine with wait-and-see on the Chemtrails hypothesis. I’m not sure why other disinterested persons are so hot and bothered over it.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States
Again, you want to put what past these guys?
And you are so into calling someone insane you didn’t know existed the day before yesterday?
Why?
The same type of people who did the above, why exactly would they not dump some stuff into the air?
Again, I don’t care about Chemtrails, per se. Drone murders are plenty enough for me. I just don’t understand the knee-jerk reaction.
Why are people so into kneecapping potential whistleblowers?
WRT Chemtrails specifically, here is how I imagine it might go down.
IMHO they wouldn’t be actively doing it. They’d test the concept of air dispersion only enough to see if it worked. That’s been done de facto via agent orange as well as the other “legitimate” chem trails studies. They don’t need to test this part with some nefarious chemical.
Then they’d be working separately on the aerosols in a lab or field. They might do some small scale aerosol tests. But there is no need to do this out the back of planes.
They aren’t smart enough to have anything remotely actionable to do with it. These are the same type of people who can’t get the money supply right, remember.
I figure the only reason they wouldn’t be more active in this research is that chemical and biological weapons didn’t really pan out. They either disperse too fast or are so virulent that they infect your own people. And these dumbasses keep those pandemic bugs preserved in a lab, remember- not destroying them.
But that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t love to have the tools on the shelf ready to go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_LAC
“Operation LAC (Large Area Coverage), was a U.S. Army Chemical Corps operation which dispersed microscopic zinc cadmium sulfide (ZnCdS) particles over much of the United States. The purpose was to determine the dispersion and geographic range of biological or chemical agents.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_112
They can do it.
Why would we waste energy trying to prove they aren’t currently doing it is my only point.
Shouldn’t we be biassed towards looking at when they might be doing it?
Since they HAVE done it?
Do we assume that we are somehow special because they usually plan to use these things against non-Americans?
Maybe it’s a personality thing. Someone claiming something that has already been demonstrated but that may not be specifically and currently true does not offend my sensibilities. I work big to small.
Maybe this is also one of those debates that serves to keep our egos distracted from the actual horrific things our government is currently doing that we don’t want to contemplate.
“the actual horrific things our government is currently doing that we don’t want to contemplate.”
Running the school that taught you logic springs to mind.
A person knowing the horrific things the government is doing does not necessarily imply that they are contemplating it. Contemplation is looking thoughtfully at something for a long time.
Andrew can know the government murders innocent people, without spending his days contemplating it.
Logic school should have grammar school as a prerequisite.
Ken B
Make an argument, or try to ignore me
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Big_Buzz
What is your argument, that by me pointing out times when the government has done exactly what the lady claims they are doing and worse that I believe they are doing it now?
If so, It is your logic that is lacking. I’m not.
But I have no idea what you are not saying. Make an argument, or don’t.
Actually, since you are only hurling insults, fuck off.
Look, the fact that we had a draft is no proof we have a draft.
The fact the govt poisoned whiskey is no proof the govt is poisoning whiskey.
All these things prove is that you cannot refute a particular accusation by saying “the govt would never do that”. But you still provide evidence it is not doing that.
The skeptics here are all dealing in particulars, and the believers are all dealing in generalities.
It’s possible Bob Murphy murders children. Some Bobs do, some Murphys do, some PhDs do. But if you think that makes a decent case raise your hand.
Andrew’ wrote: ” can’t think of a single reason why they would want to do something so insane, but that hasn’t stopped them before.”
To distract and divide so many people so that the real issues are neglected and forgotten. Issues such as reducing; taxes, intervention, warfare, domestic spying, waste, crony, fiat, debt slave, etc..
To promote fear, paranoia, instability, weakness, confusion and disorientation. The chemicals could be inert and the videos could be computer animated graphics but the result is the same…
Just look at Meghan, I know there are millions just like her. All the while the taxman marches on…
Ken B wrote:” “the actual horrific things our government is currently doing that we don’t want to contemplate.”
Running the school that taught you logic springs to mind”
See now that’s what I am talking about. The real conspiracies are in plain site, have been for a long, long time…
Well, for one: conspiracy-theorists are proven – scientifically – to be more sane, more questioning and more internally consistent in contrast to official-version-believers. So say some Ph.D.’s from several universities (as of now, I believe).
So I believe – only by watching the video – that the lady is somewhat inconsistent, but not insane. I know next to nothing about the topic, but from experience: government/military/NGO official lies when speaks. So I will give all the benefit of the doubt the lady deserves.
Going off a tangent a bit: conspiracy theory or incompetence of stupid officials coupled with enormousness of the bureaucracy? Are we sure we’re not mixing them up? Officials have to be stupid in order to be doggedly submissive to the government. So if they’re not giants of intellect what you expect? concerted effort of mediocrity to hide truth? Well, just watch “Gilligan’s Island”.
I really feel sorry for these people. Check out this youtube comment from the video.
“As someone that has battled many disinformation trolls until I figured out their tactics, my advice is, don’t waste your time. Shills, (for example Hama Neggs and William01702), sold their humanity to perpetuate the denial lie. Any credible data you offer them that is verifiable and true, will be ignored, because the truth cannot be “debunked”, and when you outsmart them, and you will, they’ll either run, or resort to insults & ridicule. Check other awareness videos and you will see Hama Neggs and similar disinfo agents doing the same antagonistic routine. It’s best to ignore/delete/block them. Instead of wasting your time letting them lure you to their disinformation sites. So, why not spend your time educating real people in your local community, instead of wasting it in a futile “debate” with shills? There IS “proof” available for anyone that takes the time to search past the disinformation sites. Demanding proof is a classic disinformation tactic to distract and perpetuate doubt. These shills get paid to prevent public outcry. You aren’t dealing with real people on metajunk, you’re dealing with “employees” that answered an ad on craigslist for “forum poster” to post comments in between turns during their online video games so they can stay glued to their laptops; and nothing you say will “convince them” because it’s their JOB to discredit people (aka character assassination), perpetuate the “debate” (distract, divide, conquer), and spread lies (propaganda), to keep the mainstream mass deceit going on behalf of the profiteers of geoengineering who subcontracted their employer to create those two sites (metajunk & conhypescience) for that purpose. Trust your own eyes and your own heart for that is all the proof you truly need, but if not, start here,”
Kristen Meghan seems like a smart woman so it’s sad to see her go down this path.
“Demanding proof is a classic disinformation tactic to distract and perpetuate doubt. “
Demanding proof is used as a disinformation tactic – what we should ask for is evidence, not proof. There are plenty of folk prepared to discount things for which we have very good evidence for want of proof. In this case there appears to be insufficient evidence evidence.
Ok, fair point. But what she is repeatedly asked for over at metabunk is evidence. She’s the one who characterizes a call for evidence as a call for proof.
I agree Ken, Mehgan should have complied much more data(evidence) while she had clearance/access.
This would have made all the difference in the world.
Just imagine if Edward Snowden would be running around saying, ” I saw it, I promise.”
” Trust your own eyes and your own heart for that is all the proof you truly need”
The sad and scary thing DJ is that this makes sense to so many people. Including many here. It fits with the who needs evidence ethos of FreeAdvice.
This is what Kelly Meghan claimed was the difference between regular contrails and chemtrails in her own words.
“The difference between contrails and chemtrails is easy. Contrails are from temperature variances at high altitudes that dissipate rapidly, where as chemtrails are stagnant and do not dissipate, they expand.”
If the whole theory is based around this, it’s absolutely laughable. It’s blatantly false and it’s so easy to disprove with rudimentary research. Contrails are absolutely capable of expanding and persisting for hours.
.
http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
If you don’t trust the source, you can easily follow the references used and verify yourself. It doesn’t take a paid government agent to tell you this.
No government agent?!? But Antoine de Saint Exupery *admits* he was on a military mission at the time!
😉
Another crazy lady featured in this news report. And these reporters are all in on it. A giant conspiracy to frame the hapless military.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/army-air-sprayed-poor-americans-in-texas-and-st-louis.888/
DJ, so I went there, and the gurus seem to be saying it’s a new spin on an old story…we’ve known for years that the military has secretly sprayed chemicals on people. Do you agree that’s what their response is?
That is not actually what they are saying. “On people” implies an intent that was absent. Carelessly, in a way that exposed people, yes. That’s the response they make. Not a deliberate attempt to do it “on” people. https://www.metabunk.org/threads/army-air-sprayed-poor-americans-in-texas-and-st-louis.888/#post-18948
I thin all of you are under the impression the air force or any other branch of the military is a separate entity who controls themselves with the general purpose of defending America.
How do any of you know any part of military or any part of government for that matter, has not been coopted? Maybe not in total but segments for a limited time? We know generals have been about and paid for regarding docking ships at preferred ports, etc…
I am just saying the farmers union could have hired the air force to make it rain…
What an absurd argument. The question is, is KM’s story TRUE not is it CONCEIVABLE. What happened or not in 1960 only addresses the argument “but the military would never do anything like that”, an argument no one is making.
Are you serious about this issue Bob or just stroking confirmation biases? Because it looks like the latter.
By the way, what ever happened to your vaunted methodological individualism? How mnay military staff were on duty in the fifties and now? Why an unsuspecting reader might think you meant the military had an identity and behavior that was a meaningful and use,ful term of discourse!
I have not yet watched the video, and I definitely have no opinion or idea on the likelihood of chemtrails…
What is interesting though are those, it seems, already proven and really real conspiracies:
http://www.cracked.com/article_15974_7-insane-conspiracies-that-actually-happened_p2.html
Apart from the fact that the NSA knows all about us, LIBOR was rigged for over two decades with knowledge of CBs for some years already but not telling anyone etc.. I am sure there is more, even though many or most yet unproven conspiracy theories might be wrong or mostly wrong.
BTW: That is the link to the second page. Sorry, though I am sure you find the first page yourself.
First of all, do not believe any government worker – most probably he still works for the government.
Secondly, is this a correct place to point to some unseen evidence about 911? Unseen because burried under load of crap called 911 truth movement. You wouldn’t bump on it even if you were a die hard “conspiracy nutcase”.
drjudywood.com
Hurricane Erin, seismic data, magnetic data – take a fracking look, it won’t kill you.
She took it to court and won – sort of…
There is one 911 truth that is constantly over looked. The United states government failed miserably with its responsibility to protect people and property from force, fraud and theft.
All that money, all those bureaucrats and they could NOT stop 3 giant planes, from hitting 3 giant targets, what a waste…
Do you really believe that that the World Trade Center was destroyed by an energy beam?
You’ve been exposed to too many chemtrail poisons.
There’s no helping these people. They’ve decided to isolate themselves from the world, cover their ears, and go LA LA LA LA LA.
After ripping apart the definitive chemtrails documentary , and trying to get a response, the creator of the film apparently said,
“Thanks for the info. Due to the monetary and political interests associated with geoengineering programs, there is a tremendous effort to keep people in the dark and unaware of these ongoing programs. Contrail Science is believed to be one of the websites protecting these interests. Many believe it is one of the many well funded government run websites that have been working tirelessly to suppress the truths that have been coming to light. Thanks again for your interest and support.
Sincerely,
Michael J. Murphy”
http://contrailscience.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying/
I looked hard. You will never get a proper response out of them. The few random believers will sometimes post in the comments section, but they always refuse to ever point any specific errors made. They just repeat the same talking points.
KenB and DesolationJones are probably themselves paid shills. Note how they keep referring people to the two sites she specifically mentioned as being run by paid government shills (contrailscience and metabunk). I believe her not only because she seems perfectly sane and sincere, but because what she said agreed with what I’d been noticing in the sky myself. I saw this video on Youtube maybe a few months ago. Maybe she didn’t bring reams of paper “proof” with her but there are others online who have. Many regular citizens went to the meeting in AZ with their Senator Kelli Ward, some of them carrying stacks of paper which they felt would bolster their case. Info like geoengineering patents. Like me, most of these folks looked old enough to remember when the sky didn’t look like it does now. Like me, most looked like regular people who noticed something bad going on where they live, not the sort of folks who believe in New Agey stuff, aliens on earth, or any other crap the disinfo types want to associate chemtrail believers with.
As for why the gov’t would do this, they may really think they are helping global warming. They may be causing certain weather events, which they can then blame on global warming in order to try to pass the legislation they want (whether they want it for financial or environmental reasons). The movie “Why In The World Are They Spraying?” mentioned a type of betting I hadnt heard about, betting on weather events. That would sure provide an incentive to control the weather. There could be any number of reasons the gov’t or private entities would possibly do this. See the document (prepared for the Air Force) “Owning the Weather in 2025:Weather As A Force Multiplier” if you poohpooh the idea that the gov’t or military is interested in this.
There are a few reasons I become irate when I see chemtrails in the sky (whether just being formed, or the fibrous clouds-cum-white haze which ensues). (1) It decreases the beauty of a clear blue sky (with or without discrete natural clouds); (2) It cuts down on how much sun reaches the earth, having unintended consequences on plants, decreasing the sanitizing effect of the sun’s rays, and decreasing the warmth I like to feel on me); (3) What goes up must come down, and all those metals, chemicals, etc. can and seem to be having a deleterious effect on plants and humans (and presumably other animals); (4) As Kristen Meghan said, these programs are paid for with our tax dollars. Some of you commenters sound obsessed with taxes. Well, if this is going on almost daily here, and being replicated in many parts of the world, this is costing us a fortune. And is being done without the consent of the people.