Analysis of the Lord’s Prayer, Part II
A few weeks ago I began analyzing the Lord’s prayer. Today I continue:
“Your kingdom come,
Your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.”
Here is what I take away from this part, at least lately: There is a definite sense in which the things that happen on earth are not in accordance with God’s will. (We run into apparent paradox here, because there is also a sense in which everything that happens is because God willed it–He is sovereign over everything, not just heaven.) This accords with our intuition, because surely there must be a sense in which God doesn’t want people to murder each other, etc.
In heaven, on the other hand, God’s will is perfectly obeyed and fulfilled. This is why heaven is itself perfect. By extension, if everyone on earth did exactly what God commanded, then earth too would be heavenly. And in fact it was, in the Garden of Eden–until people disobeyed God and thus introduced imperfection into His creation.
But although these weighty matters of heaven, earth, free will, and God’s omnipotence may draw our attention, let’s not skip over the fact that Jesus refers to heaven as a kingdom. I think this partly explains why people are so annoyingly eager to anoint other humans as their political masters. They recognize their frailty and need for a King, and just pick a really awful substitute for the real deal.
(It’s true, if you are a libertarian atheist you can say, “Forget that, I’m my own man and follow no one.” I can’t prove you wrong, I just think you are misdiagnosing the human condition. At the very least, Bob Dylan agrees with me, and he presumably carries more weight with you than C.S. Lewis.)
And here we butt up against another paradox in Christianity: Jesus is our King, and yet the ruler of this world is a prince named Satan. Again, I understand how a skeptic would laugh at all these paradoxes floating around–“save yourself the mental gymnastics and stick to reason!”–but surely we all know that there are mighty forces of good and evil battling in this world. Even if you don’t subscribe to Christianity, surely you can recognize that. In which case, the Christian explanation has the ring of truth to it, though it is still admittedly mysterious.
Bob Dylan obviously meant you’re gonna have to serve your customer if you happen to be operating in a free market, or your slave-overseer if you happen to be in the military, or a swarm of satanic government bureaucrats if you happen to be a taxpayer, or the CEO of Goldman-Sachs if you happen to be President of the U.S.
I don’t know who he thought the CEO of Goldman-Sachs was gonna have to serve. Maybe his dog?
I can’t tell if this is purely a joke or if you really don’t know what his answer would be. Dylan is saying that you can either serve another human, or you serve the Lord, or you serve the Devil. He doesn’t say this in the song, but I imagine he would tell someone who thought he served no one, “Actually, you are serving the Devil. He is crafty and sometimes gets people to do his bidding by tricking them.”
Remember the cool line from The Usual Suspects: “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”
What a lovely opportunity we have in Christianity, that an omnipotent and omniscient God will give us the opportunity to “Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.” Only with liberty can I choose.
“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”
That’s the best trick he pulled on non-believers. I suspect the best trick Satan pulled on Christians was to convince them that he is not the author of the Bible. As far as I know, the Bible is the only popular book ever written that openly accuses God of crimes such as mass-murder and genocide. Don’t you find that just a little suspicious?
That is only the case if you assume God can commit crimes. There are many things in the bible that we don’t understand why he does what he does.
Bestquest, you are arguing against the Bible on the grounds of your own assumptions, not those of the Bible or of Christians. If God did not create mankind, then yes, he is guilty of mass murder. But the Biblical assumption is that he did create mankind. Therefore, he has the right and authority to do as he wishes with his own property. Fortunately for us, God acts within the boundaries of his own character and not arbitrarily. At the same time, God is the perfect judge. Man can’t judge perfectly because of our lack of knowledge and wisdom. God lacks neither, so he can judge people perfectly. Still, when we execute a criminal because we judged him guilty of murder and worthy of death, we don’t call it murder, but justice. When God kills large numbers of people he does so out of justice. His character determines what is just and unjust. We may not understand all that he does, but by logic whatever he does is just. As the Bible says, the pot has no right to complain to the potter about what the potter did with him.
“If God did not create mankind, then yes, he is guilty of mass murder.”
No. If God did not create mankind then its a moot point.
“But the Biblical assumption is that he did create mankind. Therefore, he has the right and authority to do as he wishes with his own property.”
I thought believers didn’t view the Creation as assumption but fact. Be that as it may, assuming that he did create mankind it is not necessarily the case that he can do as he wishes with his own property. It is conceivable that an entity could create something and have nothing further to do with it – like open source computer code. I could create a program and never look back on what happened after I created it. Again, leave that aside, assume that God created us and owns as property (does that repulse anyone else?) then you seem to admit that God’s character allows for him to order his creation to commit mass murder.
“When God kills large numbers of people he does so out of justice. His character determines what is just and unjust. We may not understand all that he does, but by logic whatever he does is just. As the Bible says, the pot has no right to complain to the potter about what the potter did with him.”
God can kill great numbers of people including children who may not have ever heard the Gospel and therefore could not effectively accept or dimiss him. Does that sound like something in accord with God’s character – which you admit he can not act outside of?
There is a larger question that is part of Bob’s initilal post. Bob wrote with reference to the Garden of Eden that “people disobeyed God and thus introduced imperfection into His creation.” Christians are very aware of first cause arguments and it would seem this poses a conundrum. If God created Man – and he knew men would sin – then didn’t God introduce imperfection into His creation?
Separately, can we have moral intuitions? Bob states that “God surely doesn’t want people to murder each other, etc.” and “[t]his accords with our intuitions.” If we cannot have morality absent God, and by extension absent his commands in the Bible, then are we allowed moral intuitions? And if we have moral intuitions but don’t believe in God are those intuitions – when they are the same as Christians – wrong because of a lack of faith? fundamentalist makes the claim elsewhere that morality absent belief in God is nonsense – does this make moral intuition impossible? Or is it only impossible for atheists?
Yes that was part of why I initially became an atheist. I thought the Old Testament was repugnant.
Has your opinion changed?
I recently made a post about people wanting a king…
(I’ll try this link 2 ways)
http://twoedgegraphics.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/26-The-debt-king.html
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blog post
“By extension, if everyone on earth did exactly what God commanded, then earth too would be heavenly. And in fact it was, in the Garden of Eden–until people disobeyed God and thus introduced imperfection into His creation”
Careful here. Yes, the fall tainted mankind and the creation, and everyone is now born a sinner deserving God’s justice, Yet, we need to be careful to make clear that God sometimes ordains the suffereing of Godly, converted people, who already stand before his thrown as righteous. These do not earn of the type of misery and suffering God sometimes chooses to visit on them. Such genuine biblical theology is highly repulsive to our sensibilities. Sometimes God sovereignly deals misery for reasons we cannot explain, denying us an explanation of why, but only maintaining his right to do anything he pleases because he his God. He even uses the devil as his instrument to visit sores and boils on his faithful servant. If you don’t believe me, just ask Job. We must be careful not to be Job’s “friends”.
Is this incredibly disturbing? Yes. God and his character are disturbing and repulsive to unconverted human beings. He sometimes causes even those who love him to suffer miserably. Does the promise of eternal glory make up for this? By all means, but don’t tell someone in the midst of pain that God will make up for it. If someone told Job in the midst of his suffereing that God would eventually restore blessing to him, he would have asked how God could possibly ease the pain of the loss of his children, then he might have punched you in the nose.
“God can kill great numbers of people including children who may not have ever heard the Gospel and therefore could not effectively accept or dismiss him. Does that sound like something in accord with God’s character?”
Yes. He kills us all off. You and me too! It is even more troubling that he sends all unbelievers to Hell for eternity. That too is in accord with God’s character. What is not however, is the popular idea that everyone must be subject to the same dose of eternal punishment. Very evil persons will not be subject to the same torment as some little un-evangelized grandmother in China who is kind and gracious to those around her. The Bible clearly teaches that everyone is judged (and sentenced) according to their works, however nobody gets forgiveness of sins (all have sinned) and the reward of eternal glorification without faith in Christ though.
If God created Man – and he knew men would sin – then didn’t God introduce imperfection into His creation?
Now that is a really deep question! Here is how some prominent Calvinist theologians answer.
Since God is good, God necessarily decreed that in some sense, it is good that evil exists. This is also a necessary result of God’s sovereignty. Now does that make God the author and first cause of evil acts, since he created all? While such an assertion might seem a reasonable step, to a Christian, that is blasphemy. How can a creature stand in judgment of the creator?
The God of the Bible uses un-coerced evil acts of willful human beings and willful fallen angels in order to accomplish his own perfect will, while maintaining his total innocence from the charge of evil, and simultaneously judging the evil perpetrators he has “used” as guilty. The evil ones get punished for unwittingly serving as God’s tool to bring about his sovereign decrees. On the other hand, we (Christians) must always deny that God plants “fresh evil” in the hearts of any human being. When the Bible says that God “hardened” Pharaoh’s heart, the theologian must understand that he “hardens” by removing his common grace, not by actively creating evil thoughts.
Is that completely satisfactory? No. Most aspects of God are far beyond my comprehension, and there is no way for me to give a better answer while maintaining orthodox theology. But that’s what makes him God, and me a mortal being.
I’m sure that won’t be fully sufficient for you, but that is the best I’ve got. Hope it helps.